Continued
Michael Whitney:
I have a perception -- and I'm not sure I can fully justify it -- that a lot of comics artists are trapped in a prolonged adolescence. In the context of comic strips, there's a huge, enormous, massive cliche in which a male character hits on a woman and gets rejected with a
humorous, backhanded put down.
For examples, see anything by Frank Cho as a start, but literally thousands of comic strips on the Web and elsewhere have run this scene. There may even be, ahem, a few comic strips like that under my name rotting in the archives of a college paper somewhere in the Midwest. (I'm planning to sneak in at night and set fire to the place.)
Between the lines, there's a sense of self-consciousness, alienation and separation from the opposite sex, almost to the point of resentment. It's an adolescent theme.
I see a lot of adolescent themes in comics. Superman and Spider-Man, whatever their genuine origins may be, play heavily on adolescent power fantasies. On the independent side, I see them in work by Robert Crumb, Adrian Tomine, Dan Clowes, Chris Ware, Joe Matt, Alex Robinson... the list is pretty long. I also see some adolescent themes in work by Derek Kirk Kim.
Given: It's impossible to psychoanalyze someone by examining their comics, and I'm not qualified to psychoanalyze anyone anyway. I don't know if Kim and these other creators are simply playing this for effect or if they're exposing their psyches. Probably a little of both.
I do see a lot of comics imitation in the stories on Kim's Web site. "Pulling" and "Super Unleaded" are almost note perfect imitations of Adrian Tomine's frosty, oblique dialogue and noir-in-my-diary
narration. Kim was very clearly feeling out the style, trying it on for size.
Most of the comics on his site are his take on different comics styles. "Half Empty" and "Oliver Pikk" are (more adult) Harvey comics or newspaper comic strips. The "rant" strips, such as "The Shaft," are sprung from Dan Clowes pre-"Caricature", from Tomine (who was imitating Clowes) and from innumerable minis.
I should say here that I'm not bringing up these similarities to denigrate the work. Everyone imitates to one extent or another. It's a testament to Kim's talent that he's able to hop into divergent
styles and pull them off completely, convincingly.
Kim's fluency in comic styles and dabbling in them makes me suspect that the adolescent themes are simply a comics style point, a hanger-on from a life spent reading comics with this undercurrent that he hasn't shaken off yet.
In "Same Difference," I really felt like he had broken away from imitation for the first time into something he owned wholly. It was the first story I saw on the site that didn't make me say, "Ahh, this is just like ..."
I still see some adolescent worldview, though. It's subtle, because the relationship between Nancy and Simon is friendly. They're mostly equals, but Simon is still being "used" -- just a bit -- like the
narrator in "My Sistine Chapel." Simon yells that he isn't going to drive Nancy to Pacifica, then guess what. And in that scene where he's navel-gazing and she's commenting on the weather... yes, her indifference makes it clear that he's just whining, but it's also dismissive.
Then "The 10 Commandments" is a step back into a world where women are distant and punishing again, where the narrator has body image issues again, etc.
Again, I don't mean to denigrate the work because it has adolescent themes. I sometimes say that no one in America never gets out of high school anymore, and I think it's increasing true. A lot of people spend their whole lives wrestling with basically adolescent fears and beliefs. But. A lot of people spend their whole lives on those themes... and talented people have the opportunity to break new ground.
I think Kim is incredibly talented, which makes me hope that he moves away from what I see as perpetuating the adolescent strain in comics. I keep going back to "Island," which, yes, mentions that the narrator is girl-friendless and isolated. But I don't see it as ultimately adolescent, because it simply points the finger in a different place. It doesn't blame the isolation on poor physique or rejection. The narrator looks inward and accepts his enjoyment of solitude, and the comic ends with a real sense of peace.
A.G. Hopkins:
Nancy is potentially shallow and thoughtless at the beginning of SD when she confesses to writing back to Ben, but it quickly becomes obvious when they finally see Ben that she is only guilty of not
recognizing that he is a real person. Once she places a face with him, all bets are off. She is guilt-ridden, and concerned. This should be relatively obvious from her actions in line, outside the store, and even in placing the "For Ben and Sara" ice cream with the apology.
As Shaenon has pointed out, in Ten Commandments, Simon blames himself for his sexual issues. That's actually the entire point of the comic.
I'm more interested in whether the shame issues explored in SD are perceived by others as adolescent issues, or if anyone thinks that the issues themselves, or facing and dealing with those types of issues the way Simon or Nancy did is a mature response. With Simon and Nancy being in their mid twenties, one wonders how much maturity one should actually expect from them?
William G.:
The material is all very inward looking, almost navel-gazing to an extent. Some of you have suggested that the bitter tone (Lets use that instead of angry, angry sounds not nice.) is more of a case of character self-loathing, and I agree with that. Oliver Pikk is the most obvious example on his site.
The Ten Commandments Of Simon did turn me off a bit with it's overly pessimistic, and quite frankly, bitter tone. And that's saying something coming from a born cynic like me. I felt that it was almost like he was turning the character of Simon into a caricature version of itself. It was a step back from the character advancements made in Same Difference. Now, Mr. Kim claimed that it was just one story in a big fat book full of them, so it probably has a wider purpose that I'm not aware of. But as a stand-alone story, my smiles were matched with my grimaces.
Joe Zabel:
Mike W. brought up the topic of whether or not Kim has imitative
tendencies.
Something that struck me when I first saw his work was a similarity to Jaime Hernandez. I don't know if any of this is the result of Kim studying or copying the Love and Rockets artist; it may just be similar tendencies at work, particularly Kim's circumstance of being a skilled realistic artist who wishes to work in a more iconic manner.
As far as writing goes, unlike Mike W., I'm not as much struck by the idea that Kim's short works are imitative of particular artists or works. They simply seem to be realistic and semi-realistic
exploratory works, in the broad tradition of the modern alternative comics movement. Tomine, Los Bros Hernandez, Clowes, and Chester Brown as a group may have some common stylistic
tendencies-- but what they most have in common is the desire to tell realistic stories that are nevertheless fictional (excepting Brown, whose recent work is either autobiographical or historical.) Kim's work fits comfortably in with this group, but I don't think that makes him an imitator.
Oddly enough, Mike W. identifies Same Difference as Kim's most original work. But after reading it, in considering the story, I felt that it was partly inspired by two other well known comics,
namely Supermarket by Tomine, and Ghost World by Clowes. The subplot about Simon's betrayal of his blind friend is reminiscent of the story of the blind man and the supermarket clerk in Supermarket. Nancy's subplot about answering the love-letters mistakenly sent to her address is reminiscent of the episode from Ghost World where the characters answer a singles ad and then sit in the restaurant watching the poor soul who shows up hoping to meet someone.
In both cases, the Same Difference versions are more optimistic and show more compassion for the characters. Simon is tortured by his betrayal of his blind friend Irene. Nancy has the courage to confront the man she has cruelly misled and apologize.
BTW, as far as I'm concerned, borrowing plots is part of the classic tradition; it's not important where the plot came from, what matters is what you do with that plot. Furthermore, I know from my own experience that the subconscious can play tricks on you, so you don't even realize that you're borrowing.
Mike Meginnis:
I agree with Joe on this. You can see Clowes in a lot of his work, in a
lot of aspects, but I suspect this is more because they are working on similar ideas than because Mr. Kim decided to actively imitate Clowes. And even if he is an imitator, so what? It suits him well. Literature is all about imitation. I, for one, think it's nice to have someone making stories with a
naturalistic structure that don't take an aggressively grim stance on life. Clowes' work is brilliant, but also frustrating because of its sheer cynicism.
William G.:
In all honesty, I don't really see Same Difference as a tale of two characters maturing. I see it as two characters seeking absolution for their feelings of guilt.
Simon's guilt was pretty obvious, the story started out with it. So it was inevitable that it would end up with him confronting Irene. And while he never got direct forgiveness from her, I feel the tale of the monster in the bag was her absolution for him before he could even repent.
The character of Nancy doesn't really seem to be so malicious that she'd want to travel all the way to Pacifica just to make fun of Ben for being so weird. There has to be something unspoken that's driving her to go there, to find out about the man, and I think that thing is guilt. I think this has been the motivation from the minute Simon enters her room and catches her with the box that Ben had sent. It was one step away from a "Don't look at me!" moment. During the whole scene she is guilty. If she was truly malicious like she seems to be when she claims, "Don't you want to know what desperation of this magnitude looks like?" she wouldn't have been so embarrassed as she was. And she would have given up on the road trip idea shortly after Simon shoots it down.
As well she did attempt to make contact with him. A cold-hearted person wouldn't have stammered and want to escape his presence as she did. The note she leaves Ben is asking for forgiveness, we assume anyway. And while we'll never know if he gives it to her, or tosses himself off a bridge that night, she seems to have forgiven herself for what she did to him.
While it seems like the characters have matured a bit, I see it more like they've only changed due to the weight of guilt being off of them. One assumes that the actual maturity will come in how they deal with people after this incident.
Joe Zabel:
That's an excellent analysis of the theme, Bill. I think you may be splitting hairs about whether the events have caused them to mature or not. Significant events change people; in this case, the change seems to be positive.
I also think that you may be letting Nancy off too lightly. She is basically a good person, but she's responsible for the cruelty she's inflicted, and I think we see in the story the roots from which that cruelty has sprung-- the typical young person's attitude that the adult world is absurdly funny, and that it doesn't matter what you do as long as it gets some laughs.
But the theme of seeking redemption is what draws the two subplots together and molds them into a single, powerful narrative.
A.G. Hopkins:
Maturation is the process of change. I think the changes they go through are the symptoms of their maturation. That they want absolution to begin with says they are more mature. However, Simon's
absolution comes not from Irene, but from himself.
Simon's pause, smile, and letting go of the subject said it so very well. He could very well have done what Irene was unable to do as a child; be honest. He chose not to, not because he didn't want her forgiveness, but, in my mind, anyway, he realized that asking her forgiveness was too selfish. If she didn't realize how selfish he had been, she would be forced to confront it now, and all he would accomplish would be to hurt her again, possibly more deeply than before, and for what? Her forgiveness? She would probably not have granted it at that time, anyway.
Her story allowed him time to realize what the potential outcomes of his proposed actions would be, and act appropriately. It was his shame, not hers, and it was his to deal with, his to let go of, and
his to forgive. His impact on Irene's life was not as dramatic as it was on his, nor as dramatic as his ego had led him to believe all this time. Realizing all this was what made him smile, IMO, and was
indicative of a new step in maturity.
I think I agree completely with your comments about Nancy.
William G.:
It may be that significant events change people, but since we've only had a glimpse into the lives of Nancy and Simon, we don't really know if the things they learned that day in Pacifica stuck with them or not.
How much of an influence do you and the others think Japanese manga may have had on his style?
I personally can see it: From some of his open-faced character designs, willingness to have semi-realistic characters bug-out, and the presence of "pregnant pauses" in some stories that makes me think that the manga influence is just as strong as the underground comix influence.
Or am I off my rocker here?
Joe Zabel:
In Half Empty there are some aspects that seem to be deliberately manga influenced, like the frequent outpouring of tears from the eyes.
Shaved Asians, on the other hand, reminds me of some of Moebius's looser experiments. For that matter, Super Unleaded reminds me of Moebius's more high-density work. But Otomo's Domu also reminds me of Moebius, so maybe Kim picked it up third hand. However Kim's early work reminds me a bit more of Neal Adams, and I can't think of any Manga counterpart to him.
So yes, you are off your rocker.
I did want to get into the topic of Kim's various drawing styles, so if I may switch to 'essay' mode...
Kim has exhibited an unusual range, from polished photo-realism in Super Unleaded to simple cartoons in Interview With a Human. Many of his most important works, Same Difference in particular, marshal the strengths of both approaches into a style that's streamlined, simple and
exaggerated, but can evoke a serious and reflective realistic atmosphere.
His earliest short comics story, Pulling, is an accomplished feat in Neal-Adams-ish realistic illustration, but suffers from the pitfall of overemphasizing that realism. The jungle of weeds is a
heavy-handed symbol in the first place, but it becomes especially awkward as Kim lavishes so much effort on meticulous renderings of said weeds. The characters are rendered with great care, but they seem stiff and out of sync with each other. The panels are overwhelmed with the detail; the flat plaid texture laid over one of the character's shirts is a particularly annoying addition to the clutter. It doesn't help that the dialog is so verbose. An admirable display of herculean artistic discipline, this story unfortunately is almost as exhausting to read as it was to draw. BTW, in the last sequence of Pulling, Kim foreshadows his more cartoony sensibilities with a panel where one characters eyes bulge in surprise.
Completed somewhat later, Super Unleaded shares the intensely realistic style, but here Kim handles it far more successfully. The claustrophobic dwelling is not a symbol per se-- rather it's a concrete determining factor in the characters' lives. The meticulous rendering fits well with the inhibited movement of the characters. The resemblance of the compositions to candid snapshots helps capture the evasiveness of the characters, who are often turning away from us; but it also prevents this motif of turning away from seeming too obviously contrived.
The story also makes effective use of the wandering camera to linger on significant details, particularly the photos of happier times for the family. Once again there is a great deal of text, but here it serves to slow down the story so that the melancholy mood has a chance to settle in. It is particularly effective that the most important detail of the family circumstance is casually dropped into the description towards the end. "His Multiple Sclerosis behaves much better on cool days."
Shaved Asians is a kind of 24-hour comic Kim illustrated around this period. The compressed production schedule forced him to adopt a loose, cartoony style that appears to have influenced his
later work.
I wanted to mention Duncan's Kingdom again. It's an extremely well done piece; Kim seems to be channeling Jeff Smith and Linda Medley, with delightful results; this piece may have been a stepping stone towards the simpler and more direct style of Same Difference. And Gene Yang's script is a good read with a surprise twist at the end.
Same Difference is the sublime expression of Kim's evolved style, shifting effortlessly from verisimilitude to absurd exaggeration. At one point Kim shows Simon transformed into a human penis, but nevertheless the piece maintains the restraint and urgency of a realistic piece. Also the subtlety-- as in the scene where Simon looks across the street after Irene has disappeared, and we see a realistically-drawn storefront with a 'closed' sign in the window.
William G.:
My rocker is always empty...
I want to ask about Derek's successes and what they mean. Do you think that he is a true crossover? Do you think that since this webcomic has made such a splash in print that it will help bring more awareness and respect to the online form? Or is it more a case of someone from webcomics "sneaking over the wall" and injecting some much needed life into the print industry?
Joe Zabel:
Actually, I consider Derek to be a crossover in the other direction. His first big splash was as artist for the Image edition of Duncan's Kingdom.
But nevertheless, his art really came into its own on the web, and now he's bringing some of that energy back to print, where it's so desperately needed.
Neal Von Flue:
I went to the Eisners the night DKK won, and have to say my first thought was: here is a (debatably) web-centric creator winning a print-centric award, heck, winning THE print-centric award. Now, there is one barrier broken down between print and the web.
My second thought was: Now that we have a success story in crossing the gap between what is perceived as the "real market" (print) and webcomics, more than ever we will see webcomics artists, using the web solely to get a springboard into the print arena. I think already, there is
too much emphasis on using the web solely for distribution of print-ready material and abandoning it if the print work comes, and not enough people seeing webcomics as an end result to which print can be a compliment.
I'm not too sure this has ALOT to do with Derek Kirk Kim, it's mostly my reaction to his recent success. Which is greatly deserved, if I haven't made that point already. It could certainly be argued that his work excels over a large portion of what is in print today.
William G.:
Does anyone see a problem with using the web to launch a print career? It seems to me, that given such recent happenings as the Megatokyo publication, and Kurtz doing what he can to get in the papers, it almost seems like the web could become a farm system for print comics.
Granted, most of us have headed for the web because we don't see the print industry as holding much for us, but do you think Derek's success is an indicator of future trends? Print has the money that the web tends not to have.
Neal Von Flue:
I think Kurtz is a good example of the opposite of what I was talking about. He started a web-business first and has moved into print as a compliment. I mean, He's still putting his strip up online first. We don't have to wait a month for Kurtz strips in a book, or read them only on
Sundays...
The inherit problem is this: The web has a potential to literally step the fuck on print in terms of audience. So in a way, it seems like we really lose out when we have true innovators in a the medium move their material to a stinky comic book store. I'm certainly not implying that
this is the case with Derek. I have no idea what his plans are right now, after this recent success. But, imagine If he put his next thing online through Bitpass, or heavily advertised a new comic on Modern Tales. Then we'd see a new value of webcomics and their ability to get a
larger audience.
William G:
I think that him winning the Ignatz, Harvey and Eisner is well deserved. However, I feel that both print and webcomics are too hidebound and suffering from inertia to learn anything from it.
Here we have an example of how, by presenting a different type of comic on the web, you can appeal to a wider group of readers outside of the gamer-geek/otaku core that makes up a lot of the webcomic audience. If what's rumored about Kim's traffic is true, he has an audience that the three kings (MegaTokyo/PVP/Penny Arcade) can only dream of. Why do I keep seeing the same old pseudo-manga being put out there?
And we also have the same lesson being shown to print. If they were to stop rewriting the same stories that bored eveyone away from comics back in 1993, and start producing new material, they'd have a winner on their hands. Yet, they're telling us how the death of Gwen Stacy made Peter Parker sad... for about forty years.
Maybe Derek Kirk Kim is unique. Maybe there's only room in print and on the web for one person to get successful by following his muse. Maybe the comics medium is like all others: Forever to have a few diamonds swimming around in a sea of shite.
A. G. Hopkins:
I don't think print will learn anything from Kim winning the 'triple crown.' Print comics, especially the two behemoths, have been notoriously slow in the past to see where the train is headed until well after it's plunged off the trestle and down the thousand foot ravine. Sometimes not until after the smoke has cleared and the wreckage cooled. I don't think Gaiman's success with Sandman revitalized comics so much as it gave them a new 'gimmick' to sell. With as many decent writers as they have in their stables, you'd think if they realized why Sandman was so
successful, we'd have a lot more truly good graphic novels out there by now.
The same holds true for Derek's success. Unless they see some way to capitalize on what they perceive as a trend, (which will probably entail the signing up of dozens of semi-talented web artists under the mistaken impression that it's the online aspect which makes Kim a unique artist,) they won't act at all.
I think that the internet, on the other hand, is too anarchistic to be influenced by anything less than the online equivalent of a nuclear firestorm. I think anyone who is reading webcomics who has talent like Kim is likely already publishing and practicing online. Those who have the talent but aren't reading, aren't going to notice. You also have to bear in mind that the truly talented individuals are
such a minority in a medium where anyone with a computer and MS Paint can be an 'artist' that talented new blood will be especially difficult to notice. Even Kim, whose work has been so well received and recognized, is a voice crying out in the wilderness, to steal a phrase. I think that's a big part of why the Examiner was founded.
Finding truly talented people out there is like looking for needles in the proverbial haystack.
Hmm, I think the same anarchistic nature which prevents the web from being influenced by most events also prevents it from becoming hidebound and formulaic. There are many examples of comics doing edgy, innovative work. Many of them have appeared or will appear in the pages of the Examiner. The reason you see so many derivative works is because there are so many talentless hacks out there. Once again, you have to wade through all that chaff to find the kernals.
The only saving grace is, when you're talking about online comics it's not a question of room. The one thing the web gives us is room. There's acres, miles, parsecs of open space where anyone can set up shop.
And Peter Parker wasn't just sad. He was _really_ sad, ok buddy? And, and, and, he was CONflicted too. ;)
Joe Zabel:
I don't expect the mainstream to learn much from Kim. After all, the big money in mainstream comics is from licensed properties. We may roll our eyes at the continuing travails of
Peter Parker, but Spider-man 2 has grossed $367 million so far.
The people who can and should learn something from Same Difference are the people producing alternative comics. It's a comic that proves quality will find its own audience, even if it doesn't have an advertising budget. It proves that a comic can be accessible without sacrificing its thematic complexity. It demonstrates that readers are hungry for stories about deep emotions like friendship, regret, and forgiveness. It's a comic that proves you can be falling-out-of-your-chair funny one
moment, and sad and serious the next.
There's a lot that alternative comics can learn from Same Difference!
----------------------------
Outro:
We have all seem to have come to the conclusion that Derek Kirk Kim is a genuinely nice guy who just happens to be a technically brilliant
artist. He does have some problem with over-relying on certain themes
in his work, but we see him as smart enough to keep from becoming a
caricature of himself like Crumb has. The awards he has received for
his works are well deserved, as is his popularity. And what lessons
webcartoonists and alternative comix creators will take from his
success remains to be seen, but we hope that lessons will be learned.
It appears to be thumbs-up all around. Thanks for participating everyone. And thanks to those of you who read it.
